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Witness Name: Mr Michael Fogarty
Statement No: WITNO261_01
Exhibits: None
Dated: 25 January 2022
THE POST OFFICE HORIZON INQUIRY
FIRST WITNESS STATEMENT OF MR MICHAEL FOGARTY
I, MR MICHAEL FOGARTY WILL SAY as follows:
INTRODUCTION
1. 1 am grateful to the Chair to be invited to provide a “human impact” statement,
concerning the physical, psychological, emotional, reputational and financial
consequences to me and my family of being held responsible for shortfalls shown by
the Horizon IT system and Post Office Limited’s actions toward me and my family.
The initial paragraphs below provide a brief summary of my background, and provide
context to the detail of the human impact of the Horizon scandal on me and my
family. This statement does not reflect a full account of my experiences or those of
my family and if necessary or required ! will provide further witness statement
evidence.
BACKGROUND
2. I am from Jersey, in the Channel Islands. I lived there until I was about 15 years old at
which point I decided to go into the merchant navy for a short time, approximately 6
months.
3. I then joined the army. I was in the infantry for 17 and a half years in the Royal
Hampshire regiment.
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I met my wife whilst in the army, in Northern Ireland, she was part of the Women’s
Royal Army Corps (WRAC), in the Royal Hampshire Regiment signal Platoon.
We are both ex-Army and as such, we are well disciplined, well organised and
thorough people.
In 1990 my regiment was going to be amalgamated, so I was offered redundancy. I
decided to take the redundancy because my wife was pregnant with our daughter at
the time, so we made the decision to move back to Jersey.
I have been married to my wife, Diane, for 29 years and we have one daughter
together.
After our time in the army, but prior to the Post Office we both had good jobs, I was
working for the police and my wife was working in finance for Barclays Bank in
Jersey.
It was my wife’s dream to own a post office and we had been looking for one for
nearly 18 months when the Queensbury post office in West Yorkshire came up for
sale.
My wife is Queensbury born and bred as is her entire family and she was keen to
move back to her hometown at this point, so it was an obvious choice for us.
My wife knew or knew of the majority of the population of the village and felt that
we could bring a good service to the community in which she came from, she
wanted to be a pillar of the community.
We sold our house in Jersey that we had renovated and used the proceeds from the
sale combined with my redundancy from the army to invest in the post office.
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We secured a bank loan and moved into the post office in January 2000. The
previous postmaster agreed to stay until we were comfortable for him to leave. The
accounting was still manual at this time. We grasped it quickly and Horizon was
introduced about a month after we arrived.
I was a Subpostmaster of Queensbury Post Office, 24 High Street, Queensbury,
Bradford BD13 2PA from around January 2000 to around August 2001.
I operated a retail business from the premises which sold (amongst other things)
stationery and greeting cards, sweets and children toys. I employed three part time
assistants.
We saw the post office as a long term opportunity, particularly for my wife, it was
really her thing, and she wanted to run it until retirement.
TRAINING AND SUPPORT
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When I was appointed at the Branch, a paper based accounting system was in place.
This was time consuming however it was very easy to identify when errors occurred.
This is something that was completely absent when Horizon was introduced.
The previous subpostmaster completed a handover with me for the first week or so
and I did not have any problems with the accounts when operating under the paper
based system. In or around February/March 2000, Horizon was installed at the
Branch. A Post Office representative attended the Branch intermittently for around a
week to assist me when processing transactions through the system. Horizon was
considerably more complicated than the previous system and I recall feeling
overwhelmed with information.
The Branch was quite a large and busy office and so I was expected to process a
number of transactions on Horizon quickly with virtually no formal training. The Post
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Office representative did assist me when he was at the Branch but I recall that I
largely learnt how to use the system through trial and error.
20. In particular, Post Office did not provide enough training or guidance on the
balancing procedure which often took my wife and me hours to complete. Generally,
I feel as though I did not have a sufficient level of training to run the Branch
efficiently.
21, The figures on Horizon always seemed to be showing a loss and I presumed that I
must be doing something wrong. Shortly after my appointment, my wife contacted
my area manager (whose name I cannot recall) to request that she attend the
Branch and complete a weekly balance with me.
22. Our area manager did attend the branch and assisted my wife and me with the
balancing exercise. She could not get the figures to balance and so said that one of
our assistants must have been stealing from the Post Office.
23. Despite the fact that my wife was at the Branch at all times, we installed CCTV
cameras but they did not capture any theft on behalf of our staff. I recall feeling as
though I had no help or support from Post Office and that I had no choice but to
continue to make the shortfalls good.
HELPLINE
24. I estimate that I contacted the Helpline 2 to 3 times per month with regard to
problems relating to alleged shortfalls and/or balancing.
25. Generally, I found that the helpline could not assist me with the issues that I
experienced on Horizon. The advisors appeared to be reading from a script and I did
not feel as though they had a sufficient technical understanding of the system.
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I remember that when balancing Horizon, the accounts would show a loss. After
reporting the unexplained shortfall to the helpline, they would then advise us to
complete the balancing exercise again but more slowly. My wife and I would then
complete the entire process again and Horizon would produce a different figure,
despite no more transactions being inputted into the system. When my wife or I
would contact the helpline to explain, they could not offer any explanation and I was
just told that ! had to pay the shortfalls myself.
We were using our own savings to pay back the shortfalls which is very difficult when
you have a mortgage and bills to pay. In fact, it totally undermined the concept of
buying a post office, especially when you think it will bring you financial stability.
SHORTFALES
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In this section, I set out in very brief detail my experience of shortfalls arising from
deficiencies in the Horizon IT System, and Post Office Limited’s actions as a result. This
is only a brief introduction to those matters, in order to provide necessary context for
the explanation of the human impact which follows.
As soon as Horizon was introduced at the Branch, the accounts always showed a loss
which could not be explained.
Initially, it seemed to be small amounts of around £20 to £30 each week. I paid money
into the accounts weekly to cover these shortfalls.
However, as time went on, these amounts increased to between £90 and £110 each
week. I remember that my wife and I began to feel increasingly desperate as we were
using our personal funds to make good the shortfalls.
I would estimate that throughout my position in the branch, I paid in excess of £4,000
into the accounts in cash.
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33. Approximately £2,000 was formally identified at the audit at the Branch in or around
March 2001.
34. As my wife had completed the balancing procedure a few days prior to the audit, I was
aware that this shortfall had occurred and it had been reported to the helpline. 1
repaid this amount by cheque shortly after the balancing procedure revealed the
deficit and before the audit was conducted at the Branch. I settled the amount
centrally on Horizon.
AUDIT AND INVESTIGATION
35. An audit was conducted at the Branch in approximately March 2001.
36. I believe the audit was prompted because my wife had settled a shortfall of
approximately £2,000 centrally on Horizon. I had placed a cheque into the accounts
to make good this shortfall prior to the audit taking place.
37. I was not present on the day of the audit, however, I am aware that the auditors
attended the branch before it was due to open. They then sent my staff and wife
home whilst they counted all of the cash and stock.
38. — Shortly thereafter, the auditors called my wife to tell her that I was to be suspended
from my position as subpostmaster without pay pending further investigation. They
took my keys and told my wife that we were no longer allowed to access the Branch.
39. At no time was my wife or I provided with the data used by auditors, neither were
we given the information of the auditors findings therefore, we had no independent
way of ascertaining whether the audit was correct or not.
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Around a week after my suspension, my wife and I attended an interview with two
Post Office representatives. We decide to instruct a solicitor to attend the interview
with us. When we arrived, we were told that our solicitor was not allowed to be
present at the interview.
Eventually, after we refused to continue with the interview without our solicitor
present, Post Office agreed to let him accompany us. The interview was an
extremely stressful experience for us and I recall feeling very intimidated by the
interviewers who appeared to believe that we had been stealing money from the
Branch.
SUSPENSION AND TERMINATION
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I was suspended following the audit in March 2001 as a result of an unexplained
shortfall of £2,000 at the Branch, despite having paid this shortfall. The Branch was
closed for approximately 1 day.
A temporary subpostmaster was appointed approximately two days after the audit
was carried out. Post Office dismissed all of the staff that I had employed at the
Branch. The Post Office took my keys so that neither I nor my wife could access the
Branch.
My contract was terminated by the Post Office, however, due to the passage of time,
I cannot recall when I was informed of this decision. My appointment was
terminated because of an unexplained shortfall of approximately £2,000.
At the time, we were also carrying out renovation works to the Branch in order to
enhance the business. Post Office stated that this was in breach of the
subpostmasters contract, as I should have gained their prior consent to make
structural alterations to my property. I decided to appeal the termination of my
position and attended an appeal interview.
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46. The Post Office asked me to take a business plan for the Branch with me to the
interview which I invested considerable time into Preparing. Despite this, my appeal
was refused and the termination of my contract was made final. I was informed of
this decision by letter.
CIVIL AND CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS
47. The Post Office did not pursue civil or criminal proceedings against me for recovery
of the alleged shortfalls.
48. I feared being prosecuted because I was threatened by the post office with
prosecution if I challenged them or if did not pay the shortfalls and I couldn't afford
to be prosecuted, hence why I always paid the shortfalls.
49. It seemed clear to me that I had to go away in silence or face legal action.
LOSSES
50. I sold the branch and retail Shop on 31 August 2001. I purchased the branch for
£180,000 but we sold it for £142,000. Therefore, I lost approximately £38,000. I also
paid approximately £1,400 for stock. We never received any reimbursement for the
stock by Post Office or the temporary subpostmaster they appointed at my branch
shortly after my suspension.
51. I was suspended without pay for approximately 6 months. During this time, I would
estimate that I would have taken approximately £21,000 (gross pay) from the
business.
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52. I repaid approximately £4,000. I was convinced by the post office that I had no
alternative but to pay the shortfalls. I was always instructed by the helpline I must
make good shortfalls regardless of the circumstances.
53. If it were not for the events that occurred, I intended to continue to run the business
for at least 10 years, at which point my business loan used to purchase the branch
would have been repaid. I wished to continue to build up the profitability of the
business so that we could sell the branch for a considerable profit. I was receiving a
salary of approximately £45,000 per year (gross pay).
54. The actions of the Post Office seriously damaged our reputation in an area in which
my wife had been born and bred and knew everyone, this also seriously affected my
wife’s health.
HUMAN IMPACT
55. As I mentioned above we suffered serious shortfalls leading to my suspension and
termination by the post office. This put us in an extremely difficult financial situation.
Because of the loss of the post office the profitability of our retail business plunged
and we had no alternative other than to sell our business.
56. I felt as though my wife and I were the subject of gossip in the local area. As my
appointment with Post Office had ended so suddenly, people speculated as to
whether we had stolen the money. Generally, I felt as though the attitudes of the
local people changed towards me and my family.
57. The Post Office were fuelling the rumours by telling people I was being charged for
false accounting and fraud which was not the case. Our area manager went to the
next village along and told the subpostmaster there that I was being charged.
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Because we had lost our income my parents helped us out, Diane’s family initially
rallied around until the rumour mill started and it went through the village that we
had stolen £100,000. As a result of this my wife’s parents were so ashamed that they
cut all ties with us. It took many years to rekindle the relationship but it has never
been the same.
The termination of my employment deeply affected my wife's health.
The stress was making my wife extremely poorly, she wasn't sleeping, hardly eating,
and became angry and upset towards myself and the kids.
My wife fell into a deep depression and the doctor put her on strong anti-
depressants. As a result she barley left the house and our relationship hit rock
bottom.
It is very hard for me to say this, but I would have left my marriage and home
because of how upset and distressed my wife had become and the effect this was
having on us. However, my wife was incapable of looking after herself, let alone our
children, as such I stayed out of duty to my wife and children.
My mother ended up giving up her job to look after my family whilst I found a job to
keep our heads above water. I had already maxed out all the credit cards and we
were very close to losing our house.
Whilst at work one day I was telling my boss about my difficulties with the Post
Office. My boss advised me to insist that the Post Office pay me proper rent and let
me sell it as a going concern or threaten that I will close it down immediately.
It took an outsider to point out the obvious. I did as my boss suggested, and the Post
Office agreed to allow me to sell the business, although I had to sell the business at a
loss of £68,000 as by this time everyone knew the story (the post office area
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manager had discussed it with every postmaster in the area telling them we had be
sacked for theft) which meant all buyers had us over a barrel.
{n truth, by this time we were glad to be rid of the pressure and strain of running this
now failing business.
The Post Office’s actions against us left feeling very bitter. 1 asked myself the
question many times, what happened to been innocent until proven guilty? The Post
Office made us feel like we should be grateful for small mercies, i.e. not being
prosecuted or bankrupted.
The villagers gossiped about us so we rarely went into the village because we were
embarrassed. We felt like no one trusted us. Lifelong friends wanted to talk to get
the low down and then we never heard from them again.
My wife's lifelong friend, GRO} ho worked for us and had been friends with my wife
since they were 15 years old was alienated against us, specifically by the Post Office’s
instructions to her.
Following my termination the Post Office kept on our staff but they told all our staff
that they were not allowed to talk to my wife or have any contact with her because
they didn’t want anything to do with the post office being discussed. Sadly, IGRO! ‘ook
this at face value, and her and my wife have never spoken since. Another member of
staff was so horrified by the Post Offices instructions that she decided to leave.
Our previous untarnished reputations were in tatters. Both my wife and I had served
in the army we were people of high moral standing. We believed in rules and the
rule of law, we were and are honest people. However, as a result of the Post Office’s
actions the local community believed we were thieves. This was so serious that my
wife’s family were so ashamed of us that they cut all ties with us. The effect of this
was devastating on my wife. She was cut adrift from her family.
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My daughter's life was made miserable for a time. My wife's mental health was in
decline for a long time after the Post Office action against us. Although my wife,
functions on a daily basis she has never returned to the woman she was before this
dire episode in our lives.
Previously my wife had been a dynamic and confident woman. When these events
occurred, she became a shell.
I believe that Post Office deliberately prayed on people, by this I mean
Subpostmasters.
Subpostmasters are always people of good standing. The post office carefully vet
people before allowing them to become Subpostmasters. The type of people who
become Subpostmasters are therefore, people with unblemished records. They are
also trusting towards authority.
For example, like us, former members of the armed services. As such, we and other
Subpostmasters were incredibly naive about the criminal justice system and we also
trusted in the Post Office which we saw as being effectively an arm of government.
As a result of the way we were treated by Post Office, we honestly believed that we
were going to be dealt with by the police and the full force of the law was to be
brought on us for a crime we had not committed. We were denied legal
representation and because we were naive we accepted that everything the Post
Office said and did was right and legal; because we believed that, at the end of the
day, they are the government. This was in the same way that we accepted
everything that the Army told us, because they are the one and same government.
Our lives in essence were ruined for a good many years; we had to move to another
village to escape the gossip and scathing looks.
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79. We had to deny our children many things financially, as our standard of living took a
complete nose dive. Our children missed out on the love and affection from their
mother as my wife withdrew into her own abyss and her family chose to keep their
distance.
80. The Post Office and the government have a lot to answer for. They have ruined very
many lives as they used their draconian methods to no end.
81. In my view, the true number of victims will never come to light. This is because many
will have died, moved away or many will wish to never relive that episode in their life
when the Post Office came down on them like a ton of bricks. Furthermore, it is very
likely that many former Subpostmasters will have no idea that this inquiry is going
on. They will be too busy trying to rebuild their shattered lives.
CONCLUSION
82. My wife and I are lucky we are still together to this day because the pressure that I
was under as a result of how ill my wife because due to the actions of the post office
was unbearable.
83. We had to move away from Queensbury, an area my wife had known and been a part
of her whole life. We had to take our daughter out of schoo! because someone told
her, that her mum was a thief. No child should have to hear that, especially not at
school.
84. We had to start over and rebuild our lives. I went to work in a residential school for
children that were in care, and my wife didn’t work for about 18 months after,
because she knew every interviewer would interrogate her about what happened with
the post office, and she did not want to have to relive it again. My wife is now foster a
parent.
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85. I am still bitter about the actions of the post office and how they treated us to this
day. My mother also feels the same because she had to put her life on hold to support
us.
86. Still to this day we do not go into Queensbury, my wife’s home town.
87. At this point, I do not see what else can be done to make good the harm we have
suffered at the hands of the Post Office and thus the government, other than
compensation.
88. We should be compensated for our losses, the way we were treated and the harm we
suffered because of this treatment and our potential earnings. We had a good
business, with a good future, and that was snatch from under us.
89. The Post Office should be held accountable, and not just the organisation but the
individual people, such as the investigating officer and area manager in our case, who
treated us like we were the scum of the earth, and who threw threats and accusations
around with absolutely no basis or evidence.
90. I would also like to see a public apology on the news to all Subpostmasters and I think
they should be named individually, in a roll call, so that everyone knows that myself,
and all the other Subpostmasters, did absolutely nothing wrong.
Statement of Truth
Signe
Michaer Fogarty ~
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